Comments on: Abandoned luncheonette http://whiteperil.com/2008/04/12/abandoned-luncheonette/ Wed, 01 Feb 2012 07:45:46 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Julie http://whiteperil.com/2008/04/12/abandoned-luncheonette/comment-page-1/#comment-4526 Julie Thu, 22 Apr 2010 10:19:55 +0000 http://whiteperil.com/?p=1559#comment-4526 I know this is a long time ago, but I thought I'd add, for the sake of nothing really, that I interpreted this somewhat differently. For one thing, "turning to religion" or "finding religion" is not the same as "clinging to religion." He did not say that people lost their jobs and then suddenly found religion; he said that people lost their jobs and therefore do not give up religion. This probably has some sociological truth to it; as societies become more educated and more economically powerful, they also tend to become more secular. Second, I don't think he posited a causal connection between bitterness and these cultural norms. They're conjoined, merely, not put into a causal relationship. From my experience, I think he's right that long-term economic hardship can make people bitter, although it doesn't always. Also, frankly, a lot of politicians don't seem to really notice what has happened in big swaths of the heartland. I think they expected us to all just cheerfully convert to a service economy and be done with it, and I think there has been genuine surprise that it hasn't been that easy. So, I admit that I appreciated him acknowledging that, however badly. It seems like it was around this time that the Daily Kos came out and said something very much like: We have to convince these people to vote their pocketbooks and not their culture. I was utterly shocked by that. I think Obama is implying a very similar message in this speech he gave, and that disturbs me. The further implications seem to be that a) we're all rubes who can be manipulated by politicians and b) culture is not as important as money. Damn, I hate to be defending Obama, but I just wanted to say that I thought a lot of the hype about this couple of paragraphs got overheated. There were plenty of other reasons not to like or trust the man aside from this. I know this is a long time ago, but I thought I’d add, for the sake of nothing really, that I interpreted this somewhat differently. For one thing, “turning to religion” or “finding religion” is not the same as “clinging to religion.” He did not say that people lost their jobs and then suddenly found religion; he said that people lost their jobs and therefore do not give up religion. This probably has some sociological truth to it; as societies become more educated and more economically powerful, they also tend to become more secular.

Second, I don’t think he posited a causal connection between bitterness and these cultural norms. They’re conjoined, merely, not put into a causal relationship. From my experience, I think he’s right that long-term economic hardship can make people bitter, although it doesn’t always.

Also, frankly, a lot of politicians don’t seem to really notice what has happened in big swaths of the heartland. I think they expected us to all just cheerfully convert to a service economy and be done with it, and I think there has been genuine surprise that it hasn’t been that easy. So, I admit that I appreciated him acknowledging that, however badly.

It seems like it was around this time that the Daily Kos came out and said something very much like: We have to convince these people to vote their pocketbooks and not their culture. I was utterly shocked by that. I think Obama is implying a very similar message in this speech he gave, and that disturbs me. The further implications seem to be that a) we’re all rubes who can be manipulated by politicians and b) culture is not as important as money.

Damn, I hate to be defending Obama, but I just wanted to say that I thought a lot of the hype about this couple of paragraphs got overheated. There were plenty of other reasons not to like or trust the man aside from this.

]]> By: Sean Kinsell http://whiteperil.com/2008/04/12/abandoned-luncheonette/comment-page-1/#comment-3206 Sean Kinsell Sun, 13 Apr 2008 15:34:50 +0000 http://whiteperil.com/?p=1559#comment-3206 <i>Internet Ronin</i>, I think so, too. I can think of few things I want more than Hillary not to be president, but from her own point of view, staying in the ring makes obvious sense. It's been really disturbing to see otherwise level-headed people go so berserk over Obama, given how little we really know about him. <BR /> <BR /><i>Zak</i>, you're right about the failure of imagination and that it's not confined to Obama. The way a lot of commenters (not so much bloggers themselves) on the right are taking this incident as an opportunity to smear anyone with an Ivy League degree as a soulless elitist isn't surprising, but it is kind of sad. I think the bigger problem for him as a candidate is that he didn't stay on message and appears not to understand why people would regard what he said as a problem. Internet Ronin, I think so, too. I can think of few things I want more than Hillary not to be president, but from her own point of view, staying in the ring makes obvious sense. It’s been really disturbing to see otherwise level-headed people go so berserk over Obama, given how little we really know about him.

Zak, you’re right about the failure of imagination and that it’s not confined to Obama. The way a lot of commenters (not so much bloggers themselves) on the right are taking this incident as an opportunity to smear anyone with an Ivy League degree as a soulless elitist isn’t surprising, but it is kind of sad. I think the bigger problem for him as a candidate is that he didn’t stay on message and appears not to understand why people would regard what he said as a problem.

]]> By: Zak http://whiteperil.com/2008/04/12/abandoned-luncheonette/comment-page-1/#comment-3205 Zak Sun, 13 Apr 2008 13:11:30 +0000 http://whiteperil.com/?p=1559#comment-3205 I listened to his defense of the statement, and he very cleverly elides the most insulting aspect of his original statement. He focusses on bitterness of the economically downtrodden while not mentioning the fact that he posited a causal connection between this "bitterness" and their cultural norms. <BR /> <BR />That being said, I don't think this says anything bad about Obama other than the fact that he can't really imagine ways of thought other than his own, a shortcoming he shares with probably 99% of humans who have ever lived. I listened to his defense of the statement, and he very cleverly elides the most insulting aspect of his original statement. He focusses on bitterness of the economically downtrodden while not mentioning the fact that he posited a causal connection between this “bitterness” and their cultural norms.

That being said, I don’t think this says anything bad about Obama other than the fact that he can’t really imagine ways of thought other than his own, a shortcoming he shares with probably 99% of humans who have ever lived.

]]> By: Internet Ronin http://whiteperil.com/2008/04/12/abandoned-luncheonette/comment-page-1/#comment-3204 Internet Ronin Sun, 13 Apr 2008 09:05:19 +0000 http://whiteperil.com/?p=1559#comment-3204 If I were Hillary Clinton, there's no way I'd bow out of this campaign until Obama has 50%+1, possibly until the first day of the convention. It seems to me that the real testing has just begun and he's not doing very well thus far. Time will tell. If I were Hillary Clinton, there’s no way I’d bow out of this campaign until Obama has 50%+1, possibly until the first day of the convention. It seems to me that the real testing has just begun and he’s not doing very well thus far. Time will tell.

]]> By: Sean Kinsell http://whiteperil.com/2008/04/12/abandoned-luncheonette/comment-page-1/#comment-3203 Sean Kinsell Sun, 13 Apr 2008 08:53:14 +0000 http://whiteperil.com/?p=1559#comment-3203 Yeah, <b>XLiberal</b>, I've always wondered what her (non-corporate) duties actually consist of. <BR /> <BR /><b>Internet Ronin</b>, I agree with that. If this were an isolated incident, it could easily be put down to a poor choice of words. But it's getting late in the campaign season--I love that I have to say that in April--and his remarks in Marin County fit his established pattern too well. Yeah, XLiberal, I’ve always wondered what her (non-corporate) duties actually consist of.

Internet Ronin, I agree with that. If this were an isolated incident, it could easily be put down to a poor choice of words. But it’s getting late in the campaign season–I love that I have to say that in April–and his remarks in Marin County fit his established pattern too well.

]]> By: Internet Ronin http://whiteperil.com/2008/04/12/abandoned-luncheonette/comment-page-1/#comment-3202 Internet Ronin Sun, 13 Apr 2008 08:21:18 +0000 http://whiteperil.com/?p=1559#comment-3202 Look back at his vaunted speech on race and you will find a sanitized version of the same lines - very close but one was delivered under tightly controlled circumstances and the other was a much more informal. We're supposed to believe that the prepared speech vetted by others is his real opinion and he just mis-spoke? Just like his wife mis-spoke? What was that rationalization for removing the American flag from his lapel again? Why is he hiding from the press except at carefully controlled venues? Anyone recall how, after 8 questions, he walked out of that press conference in Texas because a couple were tough questions? Does he really believe we are stupid enough to swallow his recent line about being not just <i>more qualified</i> in foreign affairs than Clinton or McCain but the <i>best qualified</i> candidate because he once visited Pakistan and lived in Indonesia when he was 6? It's like a game of connect-the-dots. For some reason, I'm not sure that the picture will be very pretty come November. <BR /> <BR />As I say, the unscripted comments are almost always the most revealing, and the most important. Everyone makes mistakes, but patterns do emerge. Look back at his vaunted speech on race and you will find a sanitized version of the same lines – very close but one was delivered under tightly controlled circumstances and the other was a much more informal. We’re supposed to believe that the prepared speech vetted by others is his real opinion and he just mis-spoke? Just like his wife mis-spoke? What was that rationalization for removing the American flag from his lapel again? Why is he hiding from the press except at carefully controlled venues? Anyone recall how, after 8 questions, he walked out of that press conference in Texas because a couple were tough questions? Does he really believe we are stupid enough to swallow his recent line about being not just more qualified in foreign affairs than Clinton or McCain but the best qualified candidate because he once visited Pakistan and lived in Indonesia when he was 6? It’s like a game of connect-the-dots. For some reason, I’m not sure that the picture will be very pretty come November.

As I say, the unscripted comments are almost always the most revealing, and the most important. Everyone makes mistakes, but patterns do emerge.

]]> By: XLiberal http://whiteperil.com/2008/04/12/abandoned-luncheonette/comment-page-1/#comment-3201 XLiberal Sun, 13 Apr 2008 07:04:49 +0000 http://whiteperil.com/?p=1559#comment-3201 Reason # 5687 - or was it #249723- to note vote for Senator, and his long-suffering wife, the one who while she finds it difficult to be proud of the US, has no trouble accepting $300k/year for her efforts. Reason # 5687 – or was it #249723- to note vote for Senator, and his long-suffering wife, the one who while she finds it difficult to be proud of the US, has no trouble accepting $300k/year for her efforts.

]]> By: Sean Kinsell http://whiteperil.com/2008/04/12/abandoned-luncheonette/comment-page-1/#comment-3200 Sean Kinsell Sun, 13 Apr 2008 04:04:16 +0000 http://whiteperil.com/?p=1559#comment-3200 I was wondering about that myself. You would think that Obama would know enough not to include religion in that list if only because he's a slicko politician trying to get elected. I mean, people make slip-ups sometimes, but that's a real blunder. I was wondering about that myself. You would think that Obama would know enough not to include religion in that list if only because he’s a slicko politician trying to get elected. I mean, people make slip-ups sometimes, but that’s a real blunder.

]]> By: Internet Ronin http://whiteperil.com/2008/04/12/abandoned-luncheonette/comment-page-1/#comment-3199 Internet Ronin Sat, 12 Apr 2008 18:34:14 +0000 http://whiteperil.com/?p=1559#comment-3199 It is a revealing statement, isn't it? The unscripted usually is, and the more we hear of unscripted comments by both Obamas, the more questions are raised. Take, for example, the issue of religion. Shorn of the other issues he mentions, how does Obama characterize religious believers? <I>they cling to ... religion ... as a way to explain their frustrations.</i> Sounds like he believes people who are religious are religious only because of economic frustration. (<i>They couldn't possibly just</i><b> believe!</b>) And what, pray tell, does that say about this man who sat in the pews in Reverand Jeremiah Wright's church for over twenty years without uttering so much as a peep (or apparently tithing so much as an occasional dollar)? It is a revealing statement, isn’t it? The unscripted usually is, and the more we hear of unscripted comments by both Obamas, the more questions are raised. Take, for example, the issue of religion. Shorn of the other issues he mentions, how does Obama characterize religious believers? they cling to … religion … as a way to explain their frustrations. Sounds like he believes people who are religious are religious only because of economic frustration. (They couldn’t possibly just believe!) And what, pray tell, does that say about this man who sat in the pews in Reverand Jeremiah Wright’s church for over twenty years without uttering so much as a peep (or apparently tithing so much as an occasional dollar)?

]]>